In Reviews We Trust

Ep. 21 - Review Mining: How to Extract Rich Insights that Drive Growth with Lorenzo Carreri

January 05, 2023 Callum Mckeefery Season 1 Episode 21
In Reviews We Trust
Ep. 21 - Review Mining: How to Extract Rich Insights that Drive Growth with Lorenzo Carreri
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode Callum McKeefery, show host and CEO of talks to Lorenzo Carreri, an expert in CRO, User Research and Experimentation

They discuss the often unexplored value of review mining your own reviews as well as those of your competitors to find what people really like and don't like, and how best this information can be used across the business to refine products and services, refine messaging and drive innovation.

Episode links:

Lorenzo Carreri

Callum McKeefery:

Show notes:
Katelyn Bourgoin
Roam Research

EDISON: Edmond Morris
is a leading online review platform. It's used by over 8,200+ fast-growing brands. To find out more please go to:
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[00:00:00] Callum: Today on the podcast we have Lorenzo Carreri. Lorenzo is an expert in user experience. He works on in particular Conversion Rate Optimization. And he's really a great knowledgeable resource in this area. There's not many, and myself and Lorenzo have spoke at length about review mining becasue that's something I'm really passionate about and it's something Lorenzo's passionate about and we just thought we may as well do this show.

[00:00:29] Callum: And this is a podcast. So Lorenzo, thank you so much for being on today. I really appreciate it so much. 

[00:00:35] Lorenzo: Yeah. Thank you for the invite. Super excited to chat with you today. And talk about one of my favorite topics, which is reviews mining, reviews in general. Anything about review is, I, I geek out on it.

[00:00:47] Callum: Yeah. Yeah. Say same here. So that's, that's strange. It's a strange thing that we've both got in common. We're both like reviews and how they can help business grow and what businesses [00:01:00] in particular can learn from the reviews. And I think that's where you've be, you've really sharpened your tool set  in giving businesses learnings from the reviews that they've collected or, or not collected.

[00:01:12] Callum: They've been collected by their competitors. Just real quickly, tell all of our listeners where you are right now, to make them jealous. 

[00:01:19] Lorenzo: So until yesterday, I was at the beach in Tuscany, Italy. But right now I'm next to, you know, Milan in, in a town called Bergamo. Cause I'm Italian born and raised but I'm usually based in, in, in the UK I'm in, uh, in London, east London.

[00:01:35] Lorenzo: Yeah. Just came here to, to hang out a little bit. 

[00:01:38] Callum: . Love it. Very jealous. Very, very jealous. So let's, let's talk about review mining cuz review mining's something that I've been working on recently quite a, you know, a lot more. And I've kind of been building out a framework and I imagine you have your own framework. Yep. So when you do your research, do you do it in, in a spreadsheet? 

[00:01:59] Lorenzo: I do I [00:02:00] usually scrape the reviews using, there's a lot of tools up there. And, and then I just have like the CSV pile and then I upload in Google Sheets and analyze all of the reviews there.

[00:02:11] Callum: Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of pretty much the same as what I do. Generally I'll use something like Simple Scrape to get the reviews. Um, I find that one easiest. Yep. In the show notes for everyone to use if they want to use it. So talk to us about what you're looking for when you review mining obviously you're, you're scraping the good, the bad, and the ugly.

[00:02:28] Callum: Were you review mining at product level or company level? 

[00:02:31] Lorenzo: Yes. First, uh, Callum, I, I wanna tell you how I stumble upon customer reviews mining, cuz uh, I think it's interesting, because I saw had an 'a-ha' moment. So just briefly, two minutes about this, before I get I get to your, your answer.

[00:02:46] Lorenzo: So basically I was going down, uh, I'm a very curious person. I was going down the rabbit hole of jobs to be done, which is a framework that helps people, that helps companies understand why people buy products [00:03:00] and, and software and stuff like that. And when I go down the rabbit hole, I literally spend hours and hours and hours.

[00:03:07] Lorenzo: Educating myself, documenting myself about the topic. So then before I jump into the practice of, of whatever I, I, I'm trying to learn and , two years and a half ago I think it was like around like Friday that I spent literally like three hours listening to, to a podcast about jobs to be done.

[00:03:24] Lorenzo: So I had this, like super fresh memory about this topic. And right after that, I needed to buy something on Amazon. Honestly, I can't remember what it is. Maybe like a trimmer for my beard, something like that. And so, you know, a, as a buyer, I, I always go through reviews to understand what people say about the product.

[00:03:44] Lorenzo: Right. It, it's normal, it's everybody does that. But that time it was completely different because I was going through the reviews, not wearing the consumer hat. But the marketers hat, after having gone down the rabbit hole of [00:04:00] jobs to be done and as soon as I started going through like, you know, the first couple of reviews, I sort of had like an 'a-ha' moment where like. Oh my God, for the first time I actually, I'm reading the reviews, not with the customer hat, meaning like I was looking for feedback positive or or negative about other people that bought the product, but with the marketer's hat and, and I was completely blown away about what kind of stuff people share in reviews.

[00:04:30] Lorenzo: So that, that's how I, I started my journey into, into reviews mining.

[00:04:35] Callum: Yeah, I, I I mean, my journey into reviews was a bit different. I, I was kind of trying very, in the early days, I, I came from an e-commerce background, many, many moons ago, very early dawn of the internet, pre-Google, probably.

[00:04:51] Callum: And we were selling kitchen appliances online via Yahoo at the time, and Altavista and everything, and I understood then the, the power that [00:05:00] the reviews had. And it wasn't until much later it became much more sophisticated and I started doing what you're talking about, looking at them with , the marketer's hat and the product developer's hat.

[00:05:10] Callum: Yep. you know, I think reviews are a, a really undervalued resource when it comes to running the overall business. They touch, they should be touching more departments within the business. It should be marketing, product development, customer service, and the C-suite. And to really make a informed decision and grow the business fast enough, your review data and your competitor's review data has to do that.

[00:05:38] Callum: And you can only do that by review mining. And that's really probably how I see the review industry growing over the next five to 10 years is really, um, improvements in review mining. Because I think that, that, that's an area that really, you are still using a spreadsheet. [00:06:00] I'm still using a spreadsheet.

[00:06:02] Callum: There's a lot of AI that can be put in the middle of that. Yep. No one's, you know, I say no one's done it, done it. But it's because the different data sources all, all need reading in different ways and they have different sentiments and everything else. So yeah, it, it's still a manual process and it probably would be, you know, you could build a, you could build an AI or machine learning solution that, that does it for certain niches, but to do one for all niches would be very, very difficult.

[00:06:30] Lorenzo: Yeah, I, I, I completely agree there. I think, obviously, you know, the biggest weakness of, of the reviews mining approach is that it takes time, right? Yeah. I think, you know, I'm seeing in the future, you know, in five, 10 years, how many years you want I think the, the, the best solution would be like human assisted AI.

[00:06:49] Callum: Yeah. 

[00:06:49] Lorenzo: Because a lot of things that you know, I pick up from reviews as, as a CRO and customer research consultant. They come from like my [00:07:00] experience of years, years of, of doing it, right? And this is not something that you can, you can feed the AI with. So I think that that's why I'm seeing the future more like assisted AI, by a human being basically that has experience like customer research, product development, marketing, CRO background.

[00:07:19] Callum: Yeah, definitely, definitely something that we've done at reviews for ourselves is we've been mining our competitors' reviews. Yep. And not just our direct competitors, but our indirect competitors. And we've been learning what one, where the gaps in the market are and can we fill those gaps.

[00:07:39] Callum: So if you look at the review industry as a whole. It's quite unfriendly. So our competitors are quite aggressive. And my thing was, and and I kept reading negative reviews and the negative reviews. 

[00:07:50] Lorenzo: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:50] Callum: To say this thing over and over again and you'd have a pattern, and then I'd kind of put all the data into graphs and I'd see, right. Hold on. When [00:08:00] people complain, this is what they complain about. And the word unfriendly kept popping up. And then on, on several of our competitors. Unfriendly, unfriendly, variance of unfriendly. So we ran a marketing campaign, you know, the friendly review platform and it resonated. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is, yeah, this is rocket fuel.

[00:08:22] Callum: What am I, you know? So literally every bit of marketing that we do now, we try and say is this, it's not just gotta be a message, we've gotta make sure it's a friendly message and we come across in a friendly way because we, most brands, most customers have already used the review platform. So by analyzing that data and saying, well, a lot of them think their current platform's unfriendly.

[00:08:50] Callum: So it really helped us refine our marketing message. And I can't say how, how insightful it was. [00:09:00] And that's somebody who's been in the industry for years and I only did this six months ago, did a real deep dive, but on, on that, that, that information. The other thing that I will say and, and you know, you might, you probably use this all the time, is how you can use review mining to answer the questions before they turn into support questions or support tickets or telephone calls. I don't know how, do you have any experience of that? 

[00:09:32] Lorenzo: Yeah, yeah. I, I love this. So you know, reviews mining is one of my, one of my, the techniques that I use in my day-to-day as a CRO person.

[00:09:42] Lorenzo: But customer support tickets and live chats are definitely another one. Right? Yeah. Cuz I always say that people reach out to customer support because there's a problem, right? They, they have a problem, maybe like technical issues or problems with shipping. or, [00:10:00] which is like one of the most common, uh, use cases, is they have a question, and questions are basically objections that customers have in their mind before purchasing.

[00:10:13] Lorenzo: So when I actually look at the insights generated from reviews, mining and also by the way, when I, when I talk about reviews, I include customer reviews, but also the Q&A section of the reviews, right? Like, You know, if you go, if you now go on, on Amazon, for example, there's always like that Q&A section with like hundreds and hundreds of, uh, of questions. 

[00:10:36] Callum: Yeah.

[00:10:36] Lorenzo: That you can even like map out into like themes of questions that people ask. Obviously that really depends on like the type of product that you have. Let's say like dog food maybe somebody asked, is this good for, is this dog food good for x? Type of like use case, maybe like this type of allergy, right?

[00:10:54] Lorenzo: Yeah. So, you know, something that I come across all the time is that a lot of insights [00:11:00] that customer, uh, reviews, mining, uncover, are also coming from customer reviews, customer support tickets, and live chat. So it's kinda like double data points to, 

[00:11:11] Callum: so what do you recommend if they're, if you know, if they're getting those questions on the Q&A? and they're creating tickets. I agree with you that it's an objection. So where do you handle that objection. Do you think, you know, is it handled on the product page to try and would that increase, you know, I'd imagine that increased conversion. 

[00:11:31] Lorenzo: Yeah. I think it, it really depends on what the, that question is like oftentimes, people ask those questions and, and those questions do have an answer on a product page, but maybe like, because it, it's at the bottom of, of the page, only very limited number of people sit, cuz naturally we don't scroll, like users don't scroll, or it's hidden within like a dropdown or hidden within like a tab on the product or you know, if you look at like the image [00:12:00] gallery on the product page, maybe there is the answer to that question, but it's at the last photo of the product image gallery. So , you know, that would be like, okay. A lot of people are asking about the ingredients of the dark food. Right? And then we're looking at the heat maps, at the click maps.

[00:12:16] Lorenzo: That information is the bottom of the page. So sometimes just bringing it more, up, helps user make a, a decision on the, on the product. 

[00:12:24] Callum: Or, yeah. I mean, I, I've seen it and I, I was talking to, there's a company called who we deal with. Mm-hmm. , you know, they do dub products. That was making me think of the dog products.

[00:12:34] Callum: And they've actually started using, , some of the information that they've collected from the review mining now pushing it further up the funnel right at the start of the journey. , have you seen any good examples of companies that are doing it or have you helped any companies that are doing this?

[00:12:51] Lorenzo: Yeah, so finally I'm starting to actually get interest about that. So, cuz you know, I'm a CRO person, but I also have a little bit of a [00:13:00] media buy experience, you know, 10 years ago. So I, I do look at things right now with the CRO lenses, but I also understand the, understand the media violences, right?

[00:13:09] Callum: Yeah, yeah. So you can say stages of the, of, of, you know, you've got knowledge on the each stage. 

[00:13:15] Lorenzo: Yeah. 

[00:13:16] Lorenzo: And you know, at the end of the day, you know, on page conversion rate optimization is one side of the same coin because the other side is paid media. Right. So when I put together my, my inset that again, they have a purpose.

[00:13:31] Lorenzo: They have a CRO purpose. Right. To improve conversion on the, on the site. 

[00:13:34] Callum: Yeah. 

[00:13:36] Lorenzo: I, I always tell my client guys, it's like, share these insights internally with your media buy team and your marketing team. Cuz here we have a lot of, like, selling angles, for example. Yeah. Or we have a lot of ideas of ads, like even visuals.

[00:13:51] Lorenzo: Right. Oftentimes you know, one, one thing that I don't know what your experience is, but another reason why I love reviews mining is [00:14:00] because people start uploading images and videos about the experience that they're having with the product. 

[00:14:06] Callum: Yeah. 

[00:14:06] Lorenzo: Oftentimes, oftentimes I came across some images where I was like, oh my God, the customer is doing the job for the company, for the brand because they're, they're, they're adding photos that the user wants to see, right?

[00:14:20] Callum: Yeah. 

[00:14:20] Lorenzo: So, so a hundred percent like. Reviews mining is not just for CRO purposes, should be like for, as you said, logistic purposes, media by purposes, product development purposes. It, it should be something that should be cross pollinated across the entire arc.

[00:14:36] Callum: Yeah. , so one of the things that, that we hope to company with Sports Direct, Sports Direct is obviously a huge retailer in the UK. Yeah.

[00:14:43] Callum: Europe. Uh, they on lots of brands. And about three years ago, we helped them. , we were collecting their reviews and we were looking at their reviews and we were saying, well, every time you get a bad review, it's because of this certain product. And here's this one product that was [00:15:00] absolutely killing them.

[00:15:01] Callum: It'd be better for them not to sell it. And it was their, it was their mug. And their mug is one of this sports direct mug is like a pound. And you, it's one of their backfilling products, . And what was happening every single time it got delivered, you know, you'd get literally 50 reviews a day on, on that mug that it was broken.

[00:15:21] Callum: And it was like, we literally went, look, just improve the packaging of this mug and your reviews will go, your, your average score will go right over literally overnight because it's dragging down your average score. And the feedback we, you are, you're leaving a bad taste in your customer's mouth.

[00:15:42] Callum: A lot of the time with this product, your returns are high. Your, you know, your refunds are high, and damaged products is huge. No, no customer is getting in damaged products and going, yeah, that's great. They were always writing a review saying, packaging is rubbish, you know, upset at this company. And it was [00:16:00] something that could be so easily fixed.

[00:16:02] Callum: And actually now they've redone the packaging or they did.

[00:16:05] Lorenzo: Interesting.

[00:16:06] Callum: And inside. It was a cardboard inside that just held the handle a bit better, and we don't, you don't see any of those, those, uh, negative reviews anymore. So it's quite, even for big businesses there, there's that value definitely there. But it was interesting that they, without us saying it to them, they weren't seeing that. , it was kind of falling between the cracks and the business. Nobody was really analyzing it and looking at it and saying 'we've got a problem here'. The, the, you know, there was nobody looking at it. There was the accountants looking at the revenue, somebody else looking at the refunds and returns, but there was no one going, why?

[00:16:48] Callum: And then when they looked at the reviews, that gave them the answer. And I see that so much and using the data from the reviews almost in older businesses definitely falls through the [00:17:00] cracks. You know, a lot of the fast growing DTC brands are much, much better at it. But older companies where they're kind of, they've been an offline brand and now they've become an online brand, those guys seem to really be struggling.

[00:17:15] Callum: Using review data to improve their products and in using review data to improve their brand overall. Yeah, definitely. Do you, have you used I forget the ladies name, Katelyn Bourgoin. 

[00:17:27] Lorenzo: I know who she is. I know who she is, but no, I, I haven't used her, her, her approach. So I'm, I'm not sure which yet.

[00:17:36] Callum: She's got a framework that that's really, really good for review mining, and it's one that I've actually looked at in the past. The way she talks about review morning is very, very good. Very, very clear that, you know, using your reviews. Mining in all stages of the business, like we're just talking about. One thing that she doesn't talk about is, where you're getting these reviews from. 

[00:17:59] Callum: [00:18:00] Now.

[00:18:00] Lorenzo: Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:00] Callum: We spoke earlier about picking up data from Reddit, Twitter. And , to really get an understanding, you've gotta look at all these locations because if you just look at one location.

[00:18:12] Lorenzo: Yeah. 

[00:18:12] Callum: You're gonna get that skewed picture.

[00:18:15] Lorenzo: Bias. Yep. 

[00:18:15] Callum: So yeah. How are you gonna do , the Twitter thing? Are you just using keywords or are you using some different tech to, to get data out of Twitter.

[00:18:26] Lorenzo: Yeah, I can share you know, other, other channels that I use to understand the voice of the customer. So one of my favorite, you actually mentioned it, it's Reddit. So you know, if, if you go on a tool, like, for example, Ahrefs, which helps you understand like keyword research and like what kind of keywords that a companies is targeting what you often find times see is that people are, are, are typing a keyword or something like dog food, Reddit.

[00:18:52] Lorenzo: For, you know, Dyson Reddit. Right. And what's happening there is that people are starting [00:19:00] to realize two things. One thing is they're starting to realize that a lot of like, you know, product reviews on publisher's websites are not very valuable to them, right? Because maybe like, you know, the, the person that is reviewing the product is not really buying the product.

[00:19:17] Lorenzo: It's just like, you know, throwing a bunch of information that maybe like they, they got inspiration from other blog posts about it, right? The other thing is, you know, on, on Amazon, there's a lot of like fake reviews and so on. So a lot of people are aware of that. And what happens is that by putting the keyword Reddit next to the brand or the product that they're looking for, they specifically want opinions and reviews about the product coming from Reddit.

[00:19:44] Lorenzo: Cuz they, they trust Reddit. Which by the way is, is anonymous. You know, you, you don't know who the person is, much more than the results in Google, which, which I thought it was very interesting. 

[00:19:54] Callum: I think that's interesting to say that, that there needs to be more [00:20:00] trust signals, maybe about the reviews that are showing on people's sites.

[00:20:03] Callum: That's what I'd say there. And, and Amazon has a problem. Fake reviews are a problem on Amazon. They're fake, you know, fake reviews are the plague of the industry. I'm working a lot on fake reviews at the minute and how to identify them and it, it is strange to me that they would go, I want the reviews from this anonymous source rather than the verified purchases on the, that website.

[00:20:29] Callum: And it just shows you what mistrust there is in the marketplace at the minute. 

[00:20:33] Lorenzo: Yeah. And, you know, one thing that I, that I really like about Reddit is that, There's this like, sort of like ping pong game happening. So let's say I type in Dyson, take the example of Dyson because , I, I know there's like even a subreddit about Dyson, which is very interesting.

[00:20:50] Lorenzo: So. You, you type in like Hoover Dyson , Reddit. And then you stumble upon a bunch of like, uh, subreddits and, and threads , around that. [00:21:00] And what I really like is that there's this ping pong game happening between all the users that follow that subreddit. They come, come in and start talking about their experience with the hoover.

[00:21:12] Lorenzo: With the Dyson hoover that they, that they have. And to me, you know, if, if I put the lenses of the consumer right, this is amazing because all of a sudden I'm, I'm looking at like tons of opinions and shared experiences from a lot of different people. But then if I put the marketers, uh, hat on, and the lenses on, I'm like, oh my God, this is even better.

[00:21:34] Lorenzo: Because now all of a sudden they're talking about a lot of interesting insights that I can leverage on, on a product page.

[00:21:41] Callum: So what do, so go through the whole process. So do you copy that data then into a spreadsheet? Yeah. And then do you highlight the sentiment of that or do you take certain keywords out of that that. How do you score whether that's the, on the quality basis [00:22:00] cuz how I do it is by scoring the quality of the data and then taking the, the sentiments out of it, or the key words out of it, key phrases out of it. 

[00:22:12] Lorenzo: Yeah. So the, the first thing I do is, uh, sorting the, the reviews by length. Because I, I, I don't want to even spend a second reading the three review that says, I love this product, I will recommend it to everybody.

[00:22:27] Lorenzo: Right. This is a waste of time. Like, yeah. For me, this is not what I consider reviews. So when I talk about reviews mining, I talk about insightful reviews mining. Yeah. See, yeah, definitely. In reviews, mining or in general in, in bars of a customer analysis, there is active reading cuz what, and, and what I mean by that is you have to like, you know, instead of just reading through the review, like put the time to actually understand what the user, what the person actually means with that review. Yeah. So [00:23:00] I tend to spend a little bit more time than like, usually to, to read the review.

[00:23:04] Callum: Right, right. And then you're putting all this into a spreadsheet and then you're graph it out.

[00:23:09] Lorenzo: Yep. Correct. 

[00:23:10] Callum: You are highlighting,, what they should be highlighting on their page or in their ads in, even in their ad, you know, the wording of their ad words, isn't it?

[00:23:20] Lorenzo: Yeah. 

[00:23:21] Callum: Do you, do you give them information to target keywords and things like that. Does it, does it go that deep or? No. 

[00:23:27] Lorenzo: So the way I do it is mainly for CRO purposes, but clients are starting to ask me about even like, oh, marketing angles, right? Yeah. I haven't had clients asking for, for keywords, but what I do sometimes is like you know, one of my favorite, discoveries when I do customer reviews mining is something you talked about before, which is like the alternative solution that they either are considering in the decision making process or the alternative solution that they switch [00:24:00] from.

[00:24:00] Lorenzo: You know, for example, the classical example is if I'm stressed because I've been working a lot. And my goal is to lower that stress. There's a lot of different solutions to lower that stress, right? Yeah. I could start going to the gym more often. I could have a nice walk the in a park. I could take some pills to lower the stress.

[00:24:21] Lorenzo: Or I can meditate, right? There's a lot of different where I have, I can have a beer after a long day at work. So there's a lot of different ways to do it, right? 

[00:24:29] Callum: Yeah. 

[00:24:30] Lorenzo: And you know, you know, if you start thinking about. What the customer is looking for rather than like your category of dog food, right?

[00:24:41] Lorenzo: You start seeing keywords and even like, even marketing campaigns, even channels that you have never thought about 

[00:24:48] Lorenzo: before. 

[00:24:49] Callum: Yeah, definitely. 

[00:24:50] Callum: And for, me, that, that kind of identified when we did this, experiment. Yeah. Not experiment. Mm-hmm. research. On the review [00:25:00] industry, it, it kind of highlighted some products that were not being used and it helped us redevelop those products and reposition them in the market.

[00:25:08] Callum: And I think if you are a DTC brand, I think without doubt every DTC brand should be doing review mining and doing, not just review mining on their reviews, but their competitors reviews. 

[00:25:21] Lorenzo: Yeah. 

[00:25:21] Callum: And, and then even doing, review mining. What, what we did is actually review mining on non-competitors, but peers who we kind of looked up to.

[00:25:32] Callum: So we actually looked at like Klaviyo's, you know? 

[00:25:35] Lorenzo: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:35] Callum: Their feedback well on G2 and Shopify app store. So we analyze those two and actually kind of give us some information around that. Um, what people liked about Klaviyo as a company, cuz that's our aspiration. You know, that that's, you know, we look at them as a good company, uh, which they are and worked out right.

[00:25:57] Callum: They want, what they get from Klaviyo is [00:26:00] a simple solution with fast customer support. So how can I then look at reviews and every feature within reviews to be as simple as possible? Cuz that's what people want. And it really, really was helpful in, in that way. 

[00:26:15] Lorenzo: Cool. 

[00:26:16] Callum: How do you explain it in a concise way to your customers, your client, the D two C brand, how do you explain it to them? This is something that they should be doing. 

[00:26:28] Lorenzo: I usually just like take a screenshot of what the review says, and I actually break down what type of insight these include in the reviews.

[00:26:38] Lorenzo: So for example, imagine, imagine like there's a review of like three paragraphs and something, something says, somebody says, you know, let's say again, going back to the meditation example. So maybe, maybe it's like, a, a course about a meditation course. Okay. Uh, with, with the goal to lower anxiety because you had a crazy day at work.

[00:26:58] Lorenzo: What I do is I highlight [00:27:00] it. I highlight within the review all the different themes that I discovered. So for example, let's say the review says, oh, I've tried you know drinking wine after a long day at work, but obviously it was getting too crazy cuz I was gaining weight. I don't know. I I'm just like making it up.

[00:27:17] Lorenzo: Right? 

[00:27:17] Callum: Yeah.

[00:27:18] Lorenzo: So what I do is I highlight that as an alternative solution that the customer is switching from to lower that anxiety. Right. So I almost like put them in front of, in front of the pool to, to show how valuable they are.

[00:27:31] Callum: Yeah. That's an interesting thing. That's, that's the thing that I've not seen. Probably really anyone. 

[00:27:38] Callum: , I know Katelyn, has, has been really trying to do, with her solution. We really try getting the message right. So I did see brands can understand that they need to be doing this. It's kind of one of those things that DTC brands look at, I think as a nice to have, or a fluffy, not a necessity, uh, a fluffy [00:28:00] solution that that's, that we can kind of put off and do later. It's not in the weeds. It's not right in front of us right now. We need, kind of gets lost a little bit. But I think as companies like yours, Katelyn's, and what we are doing , come through, , I think hopefully.

[00:28:17] Callum: It'll become more mainstream and become a must have. Definitely. Literally. Thank you so much for being on today. Right. I have gotta ask you actually, before I end the podcast. Yeah. Recent books, you know, any good recent books? Any good recent podcasts? 

[00:28:32] Lorenzo: So my favorite podcast of all the time is My First Million. have you listened to that one ever? Oh my God. You're an entrepreneur.

[00:28:43] Lorenzo: You, you will love it. Right? It's basically like two people. 

[00:28:47] Callum: Is that, who is that? Is that Sam?

[00:28:49] Lorenzo: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Sam Parr. Yep. 

[00:28:52] Callum: I have heard about this podcast. Sorry, but I've not listened to it and yeah. 

[00:28:57] Lorenzo: Yeah. That [00:29:00] podcast is, I don't even know how to explain.

[00:29:02] Lorenzo: It's like, yeah, I, I, I'm a person that loves like, creative ideas and like ideas in general. So that is like, I don't know, I, I, I don't know how to define it. Like just to listen to it. They study a lot of businesses, a lot of even like traditional businesses.

[00:29:20] Callum: Yeah. 

[00:29:20] Lorenzo: And get insights from, from that. Super interesting. 

[00:29:22] Callum: Yeah. I have, I've seen these tweets about, oh, I just met a car detailer that's earning $60,000 a month because he's doing a hundred cars a week and he's charging X amount. So his breakdowns seemed really good, but I've not listened to the podcast. I really struggle for finding new podcasts, to be honest.

[00:29:44] Callum: The, the discovery of new podcasts for me is, seems it's not quite there yet. Where do you listen to your podcast? That's an interesting one, Apple or Spotify or what player?

[00:29:56] Lorenzo: I actually use YouTube to listen to a podcast. 

[00:29:59] Callum: [00:30:00] Okay. 

[00:30:00] Lorenzo: Yeah, cuz I, I take. So if I'm listening, like sitting down, take notes. I don't know if you've heard of this concept of second brain and, uh, personal knowledge management.

[00:30:09] Lorenzo: So I'm a big fan of that. So everything that I consume goes into my second brain and, and my personal database. And so YouTube a lot or something like, you know what? Yeah. iTunes. Yeah. iTunes, Spotify, whatever. Yeah. 

[00:30:26] Callum: That's interesting that you do you do, um, YouTube for, for listening to the podcast? I, because I don't, just simply because I'm, I'm either going for a run or I'm in the car when I'm listening to my podcast or, or I'm on my commute.

[00:30:41] Callum: Yeah.

[00:30:42] Lorenzo: I don't commute. I, I work from home, so I, I don't get to commute. And also, and also I don't listen to podcasts about something I want to learn at the gym, cuz I can't take notes. 

[00:30:55] Callum: Ah, right. So you're always taking notes and where do you, right here's one. Are you [00:31:00] a old-fashioned note pen and paper notepad?

[00:31:04] Lorenzo: No, no, no. 

[00:31:05] Callum: Yeah. No.

[00:31:07] Lorenzo: I use two solutions. I use Evernote. Yeah. And then I have also the database of my, what I call the, the second brain, which is Roam Research. It's kind of like similar to Notion. Yeah, yeah. But a little 

[00:31:19] Lorenzo: bit less popular. 

[00:31:20] Callum: Yeah. 

[00:31:21] Lorenzo: Have you tried, have you tried integration with Readwise? 

[00:31:24] Callum: No. 

[00:31:25] Lorenzo: Oh, you should check it out.

[00:31:27] Lorenzo: Check out, check out the app, because what he does is when you, uh, highlight , text on, uh, on your Kindle, it goes straight into Readwise, and then from Readwise, you can integrate it with, yeah.

[00:31:40] Lorenzo: With Roam or Evernote, whatever, whatever tool you use. 

[00:31:43] Callum: That's a, that's a really good way. I've gotta try and do that. I've gotta get better at doing these things. I read and listen to so many, um, podcasts and over so many different topics. It's, I'm kind of sporadic on, on my listening. . I'm doing Edison [00:32:00] at the minute.

[00:32:00] Callum: I'm reading a book now. 

[00:32:01] Lorenzo: Interesting. Edison. Interesting. 

[00:32:02] Callum: Which has been quite interesting. I thought, you know, I expected to get a different book than what it actually is. I'll um, put the book in the show notes cause I actually, it's the autobiography of Thomas Edison, but I don't know which.

[00:32:14] Lorenzo: Interesting.

[00:32:14] Callum: Which one it is.

[00:32:15] Callum: There's several out there. Awesome, Lorenzo thank you so much for being on today's podcast. I really appreciate it. You've been a superstar. I will drop all of the information in the show notes. Yeah. And I hope to catch up in person soon. 

[00:32:28] Lorenzo: Sounds good. 

[00:32:29] Callum: Thank you for being an absolutely superb guest today. 

[00:32:33] Lorenzo: Thank you for having me, Callum. 

[00:32:34] Callum: Thank you Lorenzo. I really appreciate it. 

[00:32:37] Lorenzo: Bye-bye. 

[00:32:37] Lorenzo: Bye.


[00:32:40] Callum: Thank you for listening today. In reviews we trust is a bi-weekly podcast where I hope to be bringing you advice and insights from brands that are taking the e-commerce world by storm.