Ep. 19 - The most effective way to manage your eCommerce store with Keith Matthews

Ep. 19 - The most effective way to manage your eCommerce store with Keith Matthews

[00:00:00] 

Callum: So today on the podcast we have Keith Matthews. Keith is the founder and director of Digital Strategy at Milk Bottle Labs. Keith is a leading voice in the Shopify ecosystem, and he has helped hundreds of Shopify stores expand and grow across the world. Thanks for joining me today, Keith. 

Keith: Callum, thank you. That was a leading voice.

I've never heard that before. Thank you. 

Callum: Well, yeah, I, I follow you on, you know, LinkedIn. I listen to your podcast. Yeah, you do have a voice in the ecosystem, so yeah, I'd like to say it's leading. 

Keith: Yeah, thanks. And, the interesting thing about the podcast Callum and, also for yourself, thanks for the opportunity. The beautiful thing about the podcast is, is that it gives other people a voice and an opportunity and a platform to speak. So, I dunno how, I dunno what, I dunno how you enjoy this or you know, how much you enjoyed it. It looks like you really enjoyed it. 

Callum: But yeah, I do. 

Keith: Yeah.

Callum: I enjoy just talking to, like, it, it's helping me get [00:01:00] a good understanding of what's going at, going on. And you know, I'm speaking to so many thought leaders and I'm sure you are. You get that, you know, with your podcast, you get that opportunity and you're speaking to people and it's probably I wouldn't, you know, me and you, we follow each other and we, you know, we, we chat maybe over LinkedIn every now and then, but yeah.

You know, we probably don't talk enough and I don't, you know, the world's changed. Normally we, you'd probably meet at exposing, you know, events, but they're few and far between at the moment. So yeah, it gives me a good opportunity to speak to people. 

Keith: Yeah. I wonder, are those days gone? I often think about you know, the amount of shopping focus we call them in the Shopify ecosystem that, you know, myself and Peter, my business partner, would've spent a lot of time with.

Yeah. You know, you would've met them twice a year up until, you know, 2019. And I often wonder, are those days gone? Hopefully, they're not. Hopefully, they will come back. 

Callum: Here's one for you obviously. You're the big topical one. What loads of people are talking about on Twitter and socials at the minute is [00:02:00] Klaviyo's price increases. 

Keith: Yes. 

Callum: Which you know, I, I was reading, I was reading the threads on, on Twitter and some guy was like, I'm spent, I'm now spending more on Klaviyo than I do on actual Shopify itself.

Keith: Yeah, Yeah. well, I'll give you my view on that. So like, they, they, there was, there was one tier, I think it was the, you know, the enterprise tier, which was up 30%, which is a massive raise. Yeah. so, but, but I have to say like we're, like Milk Bottle Labs is a Shopify agency, number one, and then the only other piece of software that we're, we would regard ourselves as, You know, masters of is Klaviyo because the two of them go hand in hand.

Yeah. And I always thought Klaviyo was cheap. I don't want to be controversial. I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be a 30% uplift, but I think what happens with Klaviyo is it's so successful, in terms of attribute of revenue. Now, obviously, we can talk about whether it's attribute, whether it's Klaviyo revenue or not, or Google AdWords revenue until the [00:03:00] cows come home.

But yeah, the excitement. And the lift in revenue as a result of the product or any automated email product, I suppose, you know, if we're being completely honest, is so high. I always thought for, for stores that were doing, you know, you know, up to five, 10 million, I always thought Klaviyo was really, really good value.

and, you know, you, you have to a wire it based on every single individual store that's up to the business owner. So I, it probably is good, still good value for a lot of people, even though it's after gone up by 30%. So that's...

Callum: that was one of the interesting things. There was this guy who said, Oh, I'm spending more on Shopify, on Klaviyo than I am on Shopify.

And I, you know, someone then asked, Are you gonna cancel your Klaviyo account? And he was like, No. 

Keith: Yeah. 

Callum: So maybe that is a, you know, showing. They were underpricing and undervaluing. 

Keith: Well, but Callum, the other, the other thing is for you to migrate off your email platform is a significant [00:04:00] event of work.

Callum: It's not an easy job. 

Keith: No. Now, when it comes to pricing, Shopify has a lot, I would blame Shopify a lot because if you go into the App store, people are paying very, very small fees per month for certain apps that are doing, you know, very complex tasks and saving them a lot of money. And the society now, right, maybe a few years younger than the two of us have actually become accustomed to these two, you know, their expectations are higher.

But like they know the price of everything, but they don't actually want to pay for anything, you know? 

Yeah. So want to have everything, But they don't wanna pay price for it. 

Exactly. Exactly. So, and Klaviyo is a prime example. What it's forced people to do is to go in and actually get into the performance dashboard and see what, see how much revenue Klaviyo is, is, is, is giving them, I think.

but the cost of migrating, obviously not the same cost of migrating you know an e-commerce platform, but if you look at your product and somebody wants to migrate off it or onto it, there's, there's an element of work there. So, you know, is it, is it worth the effort? [00:05:00] 

Callum: We try and make it, I mean, I actually went on a, you know, hiring developers so well, junior developers really solely for the aim of helping customers who wanted to migrate to us that we would literally put our gloves on and we'll do it for you.

Don't touch anything we'll handle. The migration process. So literally, our clients can come to REVIEWS.io now just say, install this for me. You, you email the developer who's picked up that project and, that, that's it. That you email them, the reviews, the reviews get imported, synced. We even put the code, we spin up, a new Shopify instance.

We add the code and then you can switch them out. Yeah. So we've made it as easy as possible, but yes, it's not easy because with reviews now, you know. Most companies, over 5 million have got quite [00:06:00] complex rules about collecting reviews. We wanna collect reviews here. We don't wanna collect reviews there and replicating some of those rules, you know, it's not easy and it takes time.

We're, just migrating one customer at the minute. Massive, massive, massive customer over from Yotpo at the minute, and there's so many moving parts with that. There's a Klaviyo part, there's getting the data part, and then there's making sure it works with all the integrations. So it can be complex when you're dealing with a bigger, you know, store but that store is, you know, you know, a massive flagship store.

And yeah, that it's not easy. but I think in some cases it's the right thing to do. I don't necessarily know if it's the right thing to do. Yeah. On the Klaviyo side, 

Keith: Well, the interesting thing about Klaviyo is, is that we would migrate a lot of people off Klaviyo from other platforms. So, one thing that will happen, I mean, it will have an effect, whether has a major effect on the PNL for Klaviyo is, questionable, but 

Callum: by the looks of it, it's gonna have a very positive effect. Cause if you 

Keith: well, it'll, it'll 

Callum: have got a 30% uplift and say they're working on a, say if churn goes to 3-4%. I know Klaviyo's got a super low churn because it's got a great product and it holds, offers value and shows value very quickly. 

Keith: Yeah, 

Callum: Churn's low, but churn might go up to 3%. If they up prices by 30%, they're still in a positive territory.

Keith: However, if you were prior, if you were with MailChimp, let's say five years ago, you could actually integrate back to MailChimp pretty quickly. Yeah. So there is, while it isn't, there isn't, While there is a lot of effort, I believe in moving and it's a big decision.

I don't, I don't think it should be based on price anyway. It should be based on multiple other factors, you know? 

Callum: Yeah. 

Keith: so it, it is a big job, but you'll find the competitors will make it easy. The very same way as Klaviyo made it easy when Shopify fell out with MailChimp. Like, what goes around comes around, you know?

Callum: Yeah. They kind of, they really [00:08:00] did well. Klaviyo really did well and, and

Keith: did very well. 

Callum: Were very lucky that that problem happened for MailChimp. They managed to pick up thousands of, upon thousands of, of clients really? Who, who weren't using what? They just came up for grants. I remember in the early days of REVIEWS.io there was a review platform that lost its license with Google for doing something very shady, and they had thousands and thousands of clients, and literally Google kicked them off out of the licensing agreement. And all these clients became available. It became a feeding frenzy for all the review platforms out there who were licensed.

And that's one of the reasons that led to the massive growth of Trustpilot back. 

Keith: Oh, back in the day. 

Callum: Yeah, back in the day. 

Keith: Yeah,

Callum: if that other review platform would've kept going, I don't believe the trust pilot would have the growth that it had, and then it wouldn't have got the investment that it had.

And it would've probably been looking at a [00:09:00] different ecosystem right now. But it's just interesting. And these small decisions can affect the whole ecosystem. 

Keith: Yeah. 

And you never, you never know what's around the corner, you know? 

Callum: No, no. 

Keith: Never. 

Callum: It [00:12:00] is, it is really interesting in, in that space. So, do you have any, obviously you, you're a full stack agency, so you do the site development and then do you do the upkeep and any management as well?

Keith: Yeah, 

so we do, I suppose we do three main things. We, we, we, migrate, businesses on Shopify Plus and Shopify. 

Callum: So where are mainly coming from at the minute? 

Keith: Mainly coming from the US and Ireland. 

Callum: No, but what platform are they coming from? 

Keith: Oh, platform. Well, it could be any platform. A lot of WordPress actually

Callum: That's interesting.

Keith: We're in the mi Yeah, we're in the middle of two WordPress at the moment. Magento, Prestashop. Yeah. You know, like them all. 

Callum: Magento used to be the big one where people on, in droves were leaving Magento to go Shopify. 

Keith: Yeah. I think when, when, when [00:10:00] Shopify Plus, you know, grew up probably around 16, 17, 2016, 2017 or when it was created?

I think it was, it was, there was definitely It was definitely, it was targeting Magento. But if you look at the stats on the hosted sites around the world, I mean, WordPress still remains a major, major player. And what a lot of people don't, I suppose, don't get the link with is that if you're, if you started a WordPress blog, you know, in late 19, in the late 1990s or early two thousands, and then all of a sudden you add e-commerce to it through WooCommerce.

Yeah, well then, you know, WordPress is not going away cuz there's a lot of people very happy with platform. so it's still a very, very, very popular platform. So we see a lot of WordPress. So that's migrations. Then we have Greenfield customers. We, that could be, you know, we recently launched a local, influencer who's also a pharmacist in Ireland.

that was a Greenfield site with two products, you know a relatively small build. Wow. And What's happening now is, as a result of the complications, and [00:11:00] I suppose there's, the industry is changing rapidly. Number one, e-commerce is much more complex. Like I remember when I built my first Shopify store, probably around 2010, you built the store and I was online by the end of the day.

Right? But now you have integrations to Instagram, and integrations to Klaviyo always. We discussed integrations to Facebook integrations to, Shopify announced last week. You know, you can now integrate into YouTube and for, for a lot of businesses, Callum. And I think it doesn't matter whether you're on a side hustle that's doing five grand a month, paying you for your holiday, or whether you're doing 20 million a year, I see the same struggles in every business at the same level.

It's always a struggle to keep up to stay knowledgeable. and to hire staff. So what we're, what I think in the last 18 months, what we're seeing is, is that businesses are depending on us more, to, to help them with the store. And we call that performance management.

Callum: Right. 

Keith: So, and that, that could be, [00:12:00] you know, small fixes adding new channel or you know, planning Black Friday with them.

You know, the strategy, international expansion again, which Shopify is very good at talking about in terms of, you know, multiple instances of Shopify Plus. So performance management is probably 50% of our business, and then migrations and builds would be the other 50. And then if a customer does not have Klaviyo, we will put Klaviyo into the store because we know it works.

So we just finished the Klaviyo install today, for example, on a Shopify store where we're not doing anything with that client for Shopify, but that customer will more than likely come back to us, to possibly upgrade to online store two, which is a good chunk of our product projects, you know, planned for the next six months are actually online store two upgrade.

So Shopify made a change to the platform last June, June last year. And, in the migrations, we're bringing them straight to online store two. But, for current customers, we're bringing a lot of current customers over to online store two. and that's the majority of what we're doing at the moment.

Callum: Yeah, we're seeing a shift for that as well. You know, [00:13:00] like we get on our installs, you know, our widgets are already for Shopify 2.0, whatever they call it now that we see a lot more in stores coming through on that platform, on that version. Sorry. on the different themes, you know, I think the themes have caught up with it now, are you using hydrogen on any of your stores? Obviously, the hydrogen going headless. Any of your stores using that? 

Keith: No. Like for me, you know, for me headless is for the 1%. 

Callum: Right. 

Keith: And, and we're not, we're not, you know, we're not fishing in that sea, really, to be honest. and you know, I've observed again, you know, through the socials, people discussing headless people I know of an agency in, in, in Ottawa at the moment that's moving two customers back off headless and back onto engineering. I've heard a few. Yeah. 

Callum: It seems a, it seems to be a bit of a buzz sell, you know, like it's a buzzword. Headless and [00:14:00] Shopify. 

Keith: Yeah. 

Callum: Kind of needed it. Obviously to add apps doing it. Shogun was doing it, for people. 

Keith: Yeah.

Callum: And there was a couple of different other apps that were kind of doing it. But I feel that they've. But I don't see much uptake. I'm, I'm yet to see any site out in the wild. Really? 

Keith: Yeah. You're limited. You're, you're, you're, 

Callum: It's not, you've done it for, you know, for a Shopify PR, you know, case study. 

Keith: Yeah. 

I think I'm not, I don't, look, I'm not a developer. I've, I've, I know a little bit about it. I can't see the use case for us personally. I think your, your e-commerce offering would want to be very complex. You'd want to have a lot of money at stake. I think you would need to be fixing a major problem to make an investment like that. You know, so, and I think you need to have complex systems behind, like I know that some customers are using it if they have like 10 or 20 different stores with a different product set on, you know, across multiple languages.

And [00:15:00] their current stack is just so complex that headless solves that problem. Yeah. But the interesting thing is that Shopify. You know, was born out of simplifying all of the other platforms that were complex. And I think that's why, you know, just be very careful before you overcomplicate something that doesn't really need to be fixed.

Is it a problem that doesn't exist, I suppose is the question that I would ask. Yeah, for some it does, but for ver not, not for, as I say, for the top 1%, 

Callum: Well, I suppose it is that, you know, they want those, like those thousand-pound gorillas. They want Target, they want those level of, you know, sites. They want those huge, huge sites.

You know, John Lewis for instance, or someone like that maybe. 

Keith: Yeah. Yeah.

Callum: In the UK. Is there any site that you look to at the minute, which you've seen recently, You think that's a really good site that's inspired me or that's gonna inspire me on my next project? Or is there anything? Yeah, there's, [00:16:00] 

Keith: I love, I love the entire portfolio by Foster in the UK. 

Callum: Right. 

Keith: And, and they, they look after the Gymshark site, or at least they did, and I, I love the Gymshark site. If I was pointing anybody in a direction in terms of inspiration for he, you know, to get inspiration there's an Irish guy, Paul Healion runs an agency in New York called 1rockwell.

So I would, I would go to 1rockwell's portfolio. They're primarily fashion brands based in the States. 

Callum: Right. 

Keith: And also Chris Pointer in I think he's in Ottawa. I've mentioned Chris earlier on. He does some beautiful stores. He has, I can't think of the name of them, Callum. He's, he's built a number of vitamin stores lately.

Right. And they're. You know, you can, I always tell clients that, you know, in, forget about site speed, just invest in decent photography. But Chris's customers don't, don't just invest in photography. They invest in photography, which is matched by, you know, excessive [00:17:00] artwork, which is just absolutely pristine, you know?

So rather than answer the question with a site, I'd answer it with the portfolio. Go, go to, go to Pointer Creative. 

Callum: I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna add all those in the show notes, because I think it's great for people who are thinking about, you know, revamping their site or just getting inspiration.

Keith: Yeah.

Callum: And I think you're exactly right. Photography is a great way to build a brand, get your brand's voice out there, and also kind of build a moat. It's an investment that smaller brands can't do it. You know what I mean? If you, if you've focused on photography and just really good photos or even just really good content, it's difficult to get copycats because they can't, you know, it's expensive.

It's really hard to do well, photography and copy. It's very difficult. Everybody can do it. Not many can do it really well. And I, I think [00:18:00] that's, 

Keith: I'm, I'm, I'm amazed sometimes Callum, the amount of people that go down the road of spending money before they ever talk to an agency. Yeah. You know, like we, you know, we've got clients that come to us that have already paid a, a brand strategist, you know, to create that, you know, 36-page document for, to give them the direction of where they should go.

And the last step in the process is actually to talk to the agency that's building the site. It amazes me sometimes. and the amount of money that people blow on the wrong thing at the wrong time when an actual fact like photography sells. Like there's, there's just no doubt about it. And it is difficult now.

Callum: Well, you know, you use, you can use the photography in so many ways now because you can use it on-site, you can use it in your socials, you can do overlays, you can use it in your ads. 

Keith: Yes.

Callum: You know, 

Keith: Absolutely. 

Callum: Just a one-and-done. And that's what people don't realize with photography, that 

Keith: now it has, it has got cheaper. And, and I, maybe cheaper is the wrong word, like more accessible, you know? 

Callum: Yeah.

Keith: But I mean, I, there's a friend of mine who runs an agency in California, and you know, he, [00:19:00] he has told me that they, they'll do Shopify bills for, that are heading for half a million dollars and the customer will have spent, you know, a quarter of a million on photography.

Callum: Wow. 

Keith: So like, the photography comes first because, you know, it's, it's, it's the absolute priority. You know, in, in Ireland, a lot of, like in our, in our local base, a lot of people don't get that. And I think a lot of people, and I'm sure it's the same all over the world, they think that by saving money on something like that, that's a clever move.

When in actual fact, I mean, as you said, all of the different social channels that are available now, even, and of course YouTube in terms of video you can repurpose like an investment in photography in 2022 could probably get you two or three years if you repurposed it properly, 

Callum: if you, Yeah. And then, you've gotta repurpose. And if you're out there and you're creating content, don't just post it once and then it's done. It's not, change your text on it, change your size, change your format, [00:20:00] you know, and repost it. 

Keith: Yeah, absolutely.

Callum: You've gotta keep, you've gotta keep close to your customer and you can do that by posting regularly and posting the right content. Yeah. And, and I, and I really think. I really think not, not enough brands do that. I think we chop and change too fast. 

Keith: Possibly. You also mentioned copy, you know, and, and you should put this in the show notes.

It's a wonderful tool called jasper.ai. Yeah. And what it allows you to do is it allows you to write a paragraph of text and then it will rewrite the same text using AI, whether you want that to be in your "about us" page or product description page. And it's a tool, it's a tool that a lot of copywriters are using, you know, So I think very often the tools are there for everybody to use.

But I think a lot of the time as well, busy store owners, you know, like busy store owners and [00:21:00] Shopify merchants that we work with are so busy hiring. So busy managing HR, so busy, worried about the container that's doubled in price. That's coming from, you know, coming from some part of Europe that a lot of these, there, there is systems out there to help people, but a lot of people just don't get to see them.

You know? Now to go back, to go back to photography, good photography is good. Photography. There's no shortcut 

Callum: no, no. One of the tools I use for writing is a QuillBot, which is like, it's like a paraphrasing, paraphrasing bot. 

Keith: Very good

Callum: sentencing and it, it re-jigs it so that it's better. 

Keith: Probably similar to what, to Jasper.ai 

Callum: might be similar to Jasper.

I'll put 'em both in the show notes. That's really interesting. I do, lemme just, So what's one piece of advice to someone setting up their Shopify store? What would it be? So if you was gonna give them one and you said, Right. Stick to this and you won't go 

Keith: wrong. So, Well, we've just covered photography, like, and, you know, [00:22:00] try, try and invest in photography.

If you're redistributing a product, that belongs to somebody else, like Nike shoes, don't copy the description. That's not a shortcut. Cause you're, you're, you're, you're doubling your SEO, you're, you're reducing your SEO by doubling the content. And Google will see that as, as duplicate content. 

Callum: Okay. Yeah. 

Keith: Callum, one of the biggest challenges we see with customers is a customer owns this, let's say a retail store for the last 20 years, and they have thousands of products.

And the biggest reason customers get delayed in launching is because they think they have to put those thousands of products back into the store for day one. You know and I've said this multiple times in my own podcast, you know, there's a principle in online retail called Minimum Viable Product.

What that means is an online store only needs one product to launch, right? So if you wait six months because you have the 20,000 SKUs, and you need to edit them and fix the numbers and make sure the prices are right, in that six months, you could have been selling. 5, 10, and 15 of the, of your other high-margin products as you are [00:23:00] building up the portfolio of products.

But everybody, as a business owner, Shopify merchants, when they're starting off, they think that, oh, customers will think of nothing in the store when an actual fact, if you, if you release 10 or 20 products a day or a week, Google is indexing them. Google is seeing that you're, you know, you're adding content to your store.

and it's actually in the long run, you get launched quicker. You start to sell quicker, and then Google, Google sees you as their friend. So, that is definitely one piece of advice I would give to people. You don't have to launch, you know, all the bells and whistles to start off with. 

Callum: I totally agree. 

Keith: It's not needed.

Callum: I, I love that piece of advice because obviously weirdly, you started out kind of at the same time as me in tech. You have seen this thing with Google where they like regular pieces of content. 

Keith: Yeah. 

Callum: And if you are adding regular products to your site, they will come back more often and they go, Oh, I'll come back, you know, once a week.

I'll come back once a day, [00:24:00] I'll come back twice a day, I'll come back every hour, You know, and keep adding content to your site, whether that's products or, or, or anything really. But yeah, I love that piece of advice. You know, get launched fast get indexed fast. 

Keith: The other thing I'd say is, again, the same type of customer that wants all the SKUs holds up the launch cuz they're waiting for stock.

But all you have to do with Shopify is just put the product, tag the product as a preorder. Or if it's, if it's out of stock, put in your Klaviyo snippet to say, email me when it's available. And on one hand, you're pre-selling. Cause if, if you're, if you take the order, even though it's not there, the customer knows, Set up a flow in Klaviyo and tell 'em, Thanks very much.

We let you know when it's in stock. Or, you know, just leave it out of stock and put in the, let me know, notify me when it's available. And what a lot of people, especially traditional retailers is, they don't understand that you can actually sell in advance, take the payment, take the money, which will fund, your next stock order.

You know? so [00:25:00] there's, it's, it's gaming the system, you know, 

Callum: and you building your list up. 

Keith: Absolutely. An email is key, as you know, better than anybody else. 

Callum: Yeah, absolutely. That's, a great piece of advice if she was gonna install one app apart from Klaviyo. 

Keith: Yeah. 

Callum: What's your default app? Your next default doesn't have to be paid, it can be a free 

Keith: Yeah, well the look, that's a great question.

So Rewind.io is run by a guy in, I, I keep mixing up whether Canadians are from Toronto or Ottawa. I think Mike is in Ottawa. I hope I don't offend him if he's listening right. Mike Potter. Mike Potter is a friend of the team since two thousand six thousand seventeen, and he runs an app called Rewind.io, which is the backup app.

And, like a hand on heart, we do not go into a store without that app in the store. it's free to download, I think it starts at something like three bucks a month. And what it does is, it goes into your store every day and automatically backs up the data. So what a lot of people don't realize is, is that if you have, you know, an intern working with you. For six months during [00:26:00] the summer period and they're updating product descriptions or, or, or you know, titles or you have an agency that's changing code, if they make any mistake or if they delete anything, if you delete the product set in Shopify, it's gone.

Yeah. Like they ain't no, you're not getting it back. So, What Rewind does is it allows you to go in and if somebody presses delete at 12:59, you can go in and you can wind the store back to 12:58 and in a few minutes your store gets restored. 

Callum: Yeah. Hard to tack over. 

Hard to tack over, so as an agency we do not, if we work with anybody they have to have Rewind.

Keith: So that is genuinely the number one app that we install and it's just an insurance policy for your store and it works. And I know that the, like, you know, guys like Kurt Elster in Ethercycle, you know, the Kurt runs a wonder, another wonderful podcast as well, like agencies that are, you know, on that side of the states that are popular within the Shopify ecosystem.

They're all using it. So, [00:27:00] you know, I'm not, I'm not the genius. I'm just, you know, the messenger really. 

Callum: I know Rewind really well. And they are a, it is a great app. It's been a great app for a long, long time. It's been in the app ecosystem very, very early days. And they're a strong team and they, they, 

Keith: yeah.

Callum: Focus on that one problem and they're very good at it. 

Keith: Yeah. 

Callum: And yeah, they, they, I think they price very well with Rewind. 

Keith: Oh, it's considering that, considering what it does.

Callum: Yeah. 

Keith: You know, especially for a small store owner. I mean, it's, it's, I think, I think possibly it goes from $3 or something to $9. I mean, it's now obviously for enterprise customers is gonna go higher, but it's, it's just, it's a coffee.

Callum: They've done a great job with it. And I definitely look up to them as, as an app developer, that we look up to. Keith, it's been absolutely fantastic talking to you today. I know you have your own podcast. Can you tell the guests what it is and you know, [00:28:00] what you sort of focus on on your podcast?

Keith: Well, thanks. And Callum, I have to get you on it, by the way. I'll say that publicly. 

Callum: Yeah. 

Keith: I'll, I'll, I'll, we'll arrange that. So I run, a podcast, I started a podcast about, in November of 2018. And it was simply to give Shoppy Folk who were people in the Shopify community. So that could be you, Callum, it could be an app developer, it could be a merchant, an opportunity to tell their story and to speak.

Now, it has since evolved into more general e-commerce because e-commerce is, has just exploded. So, one of the things that I really enjoy about it is, is that the majority of, the majority of inbound leads that we get into Milk Bottle are actually female entrepreneurs from all over the world.

Callum: Awesome.

Keith: And so the majority of people that I interview are actually, you know, female-led businesses, which is, which is interesting, you know, so. I'm also the whole tech bro thing, you know, the high five in each other and kind of like a male-dominated society. I like to actually give an opportunity [00:29:00] just to just, just to move that balance.

Just to balance it a bit more. 

Callum: I love that. I love that. 

Keith: Yeah. And it's, it's becoming really popular. The, you know, the reaction we get is great and if anybody is working in the shop for the ecosystem, app, developer, merchant, we just share their, we share their story. 

Callum: Yeah, no, I definitely have the link to the show notes.

Keith: Please do. Yeah. 

Callum: I have listeners to podcast myself. You're obviously a very knowledgeable person, you know the ecosystem well and you're a very good interviewer. Much better than myself. 

Keith: Ah, no, come on now, give yourself some credit. 

Callum: I, I'm too I dunno probably. I blame myself for being too passionate.

Maybe sometimes I carry away. 

Keith: There's, there's nothing, nothing wrong with that. The… That can be controlled. It's the other way around is when there's a problem and people don't care.

Callum: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely care. 

Keith: Yeah. 

Callum: It's been brilliant having you on. I appreciate the time that you've spent with me today.

Keith: And I, I think this is gonna be a great podcast. [00:30:00] And anybody listening have a look in the show notes. Go and have a look at some of those links. Go and have a look at some of those sites and go and have a look at Keith's podcast. Keith, thank you for being on. You've been an absolute superstar and I hope to speak to you soon.

My pleasure. Come talk to you soon. 

Callum: You later. 

Keith: Cheers. 

Callum: Bye, Keith. 

Callum: Thank you for listening today. In reviews we trust is a bi-weekly podcast where I hope to be bringing you advice and insights from brands that are taking the e-commerce world by storm.